Vignesh Sundaresan, more popularly known as “Metakovan” changed the face of NFTs with his $69 million purchase of Beeple’s “Everydays: The First 5000 Days”. Why did he pay $69 million for the NFT? What drives his investment thesis? And what value do NFTs hold? Find out in this exclusive conversation with Forkast’s Editor-in-chief Angie Lau, as he talks about the people who have inspired him and his crypto journey.
Angie Lau: An art piece at Christie's auction fetching USD 69 million. No big deal. But this was no ordinary art. It was an NFT, and the record breaking sale of Beeple's artwork put non-fungible tokens in the limelight. And while this piece really triggered an incredible NFT industry that followed. What now amidst the chills of a crypto winter? And how are some regarding the hype fest of NFTs whose perhaps time has come?
Welcome to Word on the Block, the series that takes a deeper dive into blockchain and the emerging technologies that shape our world at the intersection of business, politics and economy. It's what we cover right here on Forkast.News. I'm Editor-in-Chief Angie Lau.
Well, today we are in conversation with Vignesh Sundaresan, aka Metakovan. Entrepreneur, coder and investor and the buyer behind the $69 million Beeple piece.
And now what? So thanks for joining us, Vignesh. It's really great to have you here, especially after all the buzz has died down in and we're in the thick of it and now you've had time to reflect. It's really great to have you on.
Vignesh Sundaresan: Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Angie Lau: You know, you kind of triggered a wave that overtook popular culture, that catapulted so many people really diving into the NFT space. And now, as you kind of see what you almost triggered in that one moment, in winning that auction, how do you reflect on on all of this and where are we now?
Vignesh Sundaresan: In a lot of ways, it played out in ways I thought it would, you know, it was in a lot of ways I really wanted that to be a way for for people who are not just technologists, but people from other areas in the world who can have their skills in the global market. You know, so it's a very basic, like it's almost like NFTs where that cultural, native cultural export possibility for me. And I think what I really am excited about what's happening now is all these conversations, not the hurry, not hurrying into launching more NFT. That's not what excites me, but all these conversations, people were talking like people are still involved and thinking about how they can use this and how they can use this consciously. That's been the most exciting part of this journey so far.
Angie Lau: Did you ever think that you would be that moment when you won that auction? Did you think that that would be the moment that that really kind of catapulted a lot of people into the space?
Vignesh Sundaresan: I would say, like, I've been in this space and always have looked up to artists and I always thought crypto, so uni uni-dimensional. It's a bunch of people, technologists, and we're thinking about systems, you know, like on a fundamental level, I had an issue. Like philosophically speaking, I might be good at making code, I might be good at, you know, like designing tokenomics. But to think about the consequences, I think it's a very different job and I always thought artists are very good at it, you know, like thinking about consequences. And so that's where the real differences.
I think it all became so that people started thinking, how about themself and what this means now, right. And so it became a personal moment for everyone and thinking about what does an NFT mean to me? Right. And so all this, all this thought in this world today, you know, I don't know if if you have to go back to that moment, but I would have always wanted this to happen.
Angie Lau: I think that moment defined for a lot of people the actual value that someone placed on a piece of digital art. So I think it was both the technology and the fascination about that. But then to have been elevated by Christie's and then put into the auction and then reaching that price tag. Why did you think it was worth $69 million?
Vignesh Sundaresan: I like that moment or even now. I like how I look at money or how I personally interact with wealth, this is probably very different, you know, compared to how business people think, you know. And I look at this moment as one of, the one of a very interesting change in my path. You know, like the kind of doors and and glass ceilings it opened.
Maybe if there is a second NFT sale, that's like at 50 million, I don't know if they would get the same kind of doors that are open for me. But what happens is this kind of moment, that that unique moment actually triggers this and it helps me navigate the world. Now, it's not just about the money part or the value part which which drives my decisions or what I paid. But it's it has become more than that, and being able to be part of traditional networks and those kind of things are kind of really hard to break if you don't have a how they say it's a it's like a warm introduction, right? But how do we how do you get a warm introduction? And and after that moment, it's been quite easy for me to, you know, be part of bigger conversations. So that's that's what I see of of value here.
Angie Lau: You've become definitely part of the conversation. I think a lot of people are very interested in speaking with you and those warm introductions, no doubt are there? But is that also the value for NFT collectors as they seek to to make a place in their digital world? What's your thesis and and how is that driving the NFT market?
Vignesh Sundaresan: On a core level, what I do believe about NFTs is that they have this they have this quantization – the ability to quantized experience and even when it can quantized and bring together something that's, that's intangible. Where it's like you can you can lock something at a point in time. Right. And so there are so many powerful things that come out of it and with immutability and, you know, like permanence. There is also this whole area of, say, archiving that comes out of it. Right. So NFTs, I believe, have a very very important place in human – in terms of telling human history, right, and storing human history – and that's where it is going. So more than the personal value, if NFTs actually don't carry any weight, none of this actually would matter. You know, that's that's what I mean.
Angie Lau: If you take a look at the macro market, the crypto market has recently seen some gloomy days, to be sure. The trust in digital assets has been rocked by the devastating Terra crash. You combine that with Russia's invasion of Ukraine and investors have found themselves in a full blown bear market. And then we're seeing the ripple effect across crypto and NFTs. From your perspective, where do you think this will bear out? How long do you think this market is going to last and what would it take for the crypto market to start feeling robust again?
Vignesh Sundaresan: I have no short term takes on any of this because I like for me crypto is a tool, a technology and to even see crypto as an industry. I've grown to not look at it that way. And so the whole crypto industry, the way it's evolving now that I see that it's that is there's going to be so much fragmentation where it's not this one hierarchical, you know, like top number one coin number two coin that kind of notion.
I believe that there'll be like this multichain world where, you know, like people like everything that's a traditional institution will also think about having their own chain. You know, like every institution, every I'm not talking about the government, but I'm talking about every everyone else too, right? So if you are a library, maybe you need your own blockchain, you know, and things like that might happen in the future. And I just see that this whole thing as an evolution towards getting that tech to a place where that's possible. So that's where I come from. So I don't look at the, the market and I don't, I don't trade. So I have no idea, you know, that that all this is going.
Angie Lau: What about NFT sales, though? A lot of a lot of the interest that you participated in stoking have also now plummeted. I think monthly NFT sales plummeted 65% compared to the previous month. Why do you think that happened in your view?
Vignesh Sundaresan: I have no idea what people are buying. In reality, the idea that we are looking at it as one is what is affecting it the most. Like, I like when I buy something, I have a thesis and I can be wrong. And if I'm wrong, whatever I buy goes to zero. Right. So that's one side. But art especially I don't look at it that way. So I don't look at it at investment. Art I look at it as consumption like when it when that's the case, it's like you buy a piece of art and and it's in your wall, you know, like, maybe like when you're when you're long gone, it might have value because it was in your home or something. But in reality, it has value because it's art and it has to interact with the people who's in front of it, you know. And that's all like when it comes to art, I don't spend looking at something I can sell tomorrow. And if it's some some other NFT, maybe that's the case. It could be some piece of land in a metaverse. But all those things are very different from art itself. So that's where the you have to decouple, you know.
Angie Lau: Metakovan – Vignesh, It's good. What do you prefer? Do you prefer Vignesh or do you prefer Metakovan? What do you prefer?
Vignesh Sundaresan: I'm happy that they're kind of being used one for another, so I'm happy with anything at this point. It's OK.
Angie Lau: It's It's interchangeable.
Vignesh Sundaresan: It's a part, right, like you, it was when you start something like this, you don't think about this that seriously, it’s a Twitter name, it's just a Discord username, Instagram username. But, you know, it becomes serious.
Angie Lau: It’s $69 million worth of serious. But also, it's just the beginning. I want to ask about the fund that you've set up of your own called Metapurse. How big? How big is the fund? What are you investing in and who are the investors in the fund? Tell us a little bit more about this.
Vignesh Sundaresan: So Metapurse itself is it's just self-funded. I've never taken external money, most of the things I do are are either infrastructure investments or things that are like, say, grants and things that we want to just get. It's like get bootstrapped in terms of the art industry, it's not focused on making money. That's not its first objective.
So that's one of the reasons why that is there are no external investors and because of the way NFTs work, it's so evolving that the thesis can change in three months, six months. And then you are – if you actually have a thesis and your fund is based on that thesis, it really becomes harder and harder to, you know, shift it with more stakeholders. So I have always kept that to myself, you know.
Angie Lau: Is a this is a fund of one.
Vignesh Sundaresan: Yeah.
Angie Lau: And so I get to ask you, what is your thesis right now?
Vignesh Sundaresan: Hmm. So this is just in the last year has evolved so much, you know, like maybe then when I started Metapurse, I was more focused on investing in infrastructure companies, meaning things that make NFTs more accessible. You know, it could be a it could be a blockchain, it could be a it could be a wallet, it could be a marketplace, you know, like all of these things. And it could be virtual worlds. It could be it could be many things that we see today in the market. But today I've slowly grown out of it.
Meaning I don't necessarily like I don't think I'll be a VC, I'll be a – I'll not, probably be an angel investor. You know, that's that's more my role. And I want to keep it so that the money goes towards like what, making NFTs or, evolving through what an NFT means, you know, like working with artists and in a longer time. So, instead of thinking about 150 to 250 is like, I work on one NFT for six months and by the end of it it evolves my thesis also and I stand there and then I work on another and usually working on something for six months – it's a cost. So the fund goes towards those kind of expenses more than, you know, buying something, or investing in a infrastructure company. That's this moment in Metapurse.
Angie Lau: Do you think it has evolved past art?
Vignesh Sundaresan: I think. It's funny. It was fast art before, and it evolved into art now.
Angie Lau: Mm hmm. You think it's going to stay in art?
Vignesh Sundaresan: You know, your art has this a way to, you know, take you into different places. So I'm just ready for the ride, you know, like, it's like I'm free and I'm waiting to see what art can make of me.
Angie Lau: Well, it's incredible to really meet you at this moment. Historically, you know, Bitcoin, cryptocurrency, all of this technology, the blockchain chain technology has really come up in the past 13 years. Where did the interest come for you? When did you first get interested in NFTs, in blockchain in this world? How did it all begin for you?
Vignesh Sundaresan: So it definitely, it's technology – right, that's the thing. So when I when I when I grew up, the, the kind of influences I had were where, you know, understanding, you know, who Bill Gates was and who, you know, like someone like Abdul Kalam from India was. And and there was contrasting characters, even though they were all in technology, you know, one became the world's richest person, one became the president of president of India. And their lives are very different, and their impact after their career is also very different. You know, so all of these things have, you know, like made me think about what it means and what technology means.
So I became curious about crypto because it was new – that's it. Like it's new and maybe it could be something. So I started working on it and maybe by 2014 when I – like it was the maybe the peak moment in terms of the kind of people that were passing through my life. So there was at some point there was Vitalik, there was Gavin or there was so many other people because of the kind of work I did in 2014. So I was building Bitcoin ATMs and because of that I had so many connections happening, had this introduction with Ethereum or what Ethereum was going to be after two years. So I was really trying to understand why this is important to the people who are building it.
That is this economic angle that is, oh, this is this is revolutionary, you know, and that's the kind of, you know, like I was really inspired by the idea that you are you're able to even think about separating state and money. You know, it's like the ability to think about separating church and state 400 - 500 years ago, that was a courageous thought. Right. And imagine being able to think about separating state and money. You know, I'm not saying we'll be able to do it. I'm not saying I'm the person doing it or anyone else. But even to be able to have such a tool which can enable you to think that way, I was totally inspired.
Angie Lau: And to truly be that pioneer and to see to see this story unfold before your eyes. And to participate in it directly for you. When we come back, I've got to ask you about how the regulatory moves in two countries, Singapore and India, both countries you're very familiar with. This is our backyard right here in Asia, and what's happening here could very well set the pace for the rest of the world when we return. Word on the Block continues.
Angie Lau: Vignesh… it's.. you know, a lot of stakeholders in the early days, it was really the developers, it was the coders. And then it has evolved into obviously, you know, entrepreneurs and innovators and more building onto the space, and you've kind of outlined your personal journey there.
And now we've got the regulators. The regulators are here and they really want to figure out how to keep people safe at the same time regulate the market. And there's a wide spectrum of regulatory response. First thoughts on Singapore, how would your view is the regulatory space in Singapore? Have they ceded it to other jurisdictions like Dubai? Or are they on the right path, doing the right thing, being very judicious in making sure the rails are in place so that people can participate safely? What are your thoughts?
Vignesh Sundaresan: Yeah, so I've been in Singapore since 2018, we run a company in Singapore, you know, and say, if you want to be a contractor in Crypto, is it possible? You know, so from this question to so many other things to understanding, staking rewards, to so doing everything in a in a very structured and a systematic way – I think Singapore has been such a nice country to do this with because it's their very feedback driven, they're very practical.
And and their goal is to be business conducive and not to, you know, necessarily stifle innovation. So I do understand where the restrictions are in Singapore. You know, like it is not just easy to do, say ICOs, anymore, you know, it's not just easy to do become an exchange anymore. But I think this should not be easy. You know, like being an exchange means you are a custodian. And I think what Singapore understands about exchanges is very, you know, appropriate.
Angie Lau: Singapore, though, has discouraged retail investors from participating. Do you agree with that?
Vignesh Sundaresan: That caution is essential because the caution is only going to – it's saying that, you know, do you know what you're getting into? Right, because this could be -65 and what are you going to do? Right, and and for a person like me who understands that in fear, that's going to be -65. I'm still fine with because I learn the technology, I read it and and it's a very specialized knowledge that I deploy to my investments. So can it be a mainstream retail investment? Like you have to be very careful. You know, you have to understand what you're getting into. There should be this freedom to invest, but you should know what you're getting into, right.
Angie Lau: India is another country that seems to be discouraging the participation of retail crypto investors. They imposed a 30% flat tax on all crypto. They have also planned on introducing another 1% tax on all crypto transactions above, I believe, 129 USD starting at the Beginning of July. And a lot of people are worried that that that's going to add a greater chill for crypto winter, for Indian exchanges, for retail investors, for investors in general.
Vignesh Sundaresan: In a lot of ways if the country wants crypto as a new technology to evolve here and make new startups in India, that means it should have a very different attitude to what it is today. But I understand that from the Indian regulatory perspective, crypto looks and feels like something that's like a lottery, even lottery winnings or, you know, gambling, you know – it's like they look at it as such a such a runaway risk that, you know, you might become rich in it, but you might become zero in it. So if you really become rich in it, you have to pay taxes like you would if you won the lottery.
That's the kind of approach I feel India is taking. And if that's the approach, that means that India would completely cut off retail, but it would more importantly, cut off innovation and and job creation inside India. And India would again become the back end like a BPO. For for a product company outside. So you cannot stop Indians or an individual from doing crypto stuff. They'll go outside India, they'll maybe have companies that does work for another company in another country.
But the hard part is, do they do does the country want it? You know, so it's a larger question.
Angie Lau: Who knows where this technology will take us. But if there's one thing that we know for certain is that it will be changing many of the things that we take for granted today, Not only in Asia but around the world.
Vignesh It was a pleasure to talk with you and get a little insight as to how you view this space, why you made that investment, and where you see it all going. It was really great talking with you. Thanks for joining us on the show.
Vignesh Sundaresan: Thank you. Thank you, Angie.
Angie Lau: And thank you, everyone, for joining us on this latest episode of Word on the Block. I’m Editor-in-Chief Angie Lau. Until the next time.